Michael Hörth Hoerth

Male 1860 - 1943  (82 years)


Generations:      Standard    |    Compact    |    Vertical    |    Text    |    Register    |    PDF

Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Michael Hörth Hoerth was born on 21 Sep 1860 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died in 1943 in South Dakota, USA.

    Family/Spouse: Katherina Veiock. Katherina (daughter of Michael Veiock and Margaretha Krieg) was born on 28 Aug 1862 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died in 1960 in Montana, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 2. Katharina Hörth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 5 Jul 1883 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina.
    2. 3. Lydia Hörth  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 4. Albert Hörth  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 5. Elisabetha Hörth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 1 Feb 1887 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 10 Oct 1951 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA; was buried on 12 Oct 1951 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    5. 6. Heinrich Hörth Hoerth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 25 May 1889 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina.
    6. 7. Rosa Hörth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 24 Oct 1891 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 21 Feb 1972 in Lewisville, Polk County, Oregon, USA.
    7. 8. Frederick Hoerth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 8 May 1897 in Texas, USA; died in 0Sep 1974 in Alpena, Jerauld County, South Dakota, USA.
    8. 9. Edward Hoerth  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 28 Sep 1900 in Texas, USA; died on 13 Jul 1970 in Wessington Springs, Jerauld County, South Dakota, USA.


Generation: 2

  1. 2.  Katharina Hörth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 5 Jul 1883 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina.

  2. 3.  Lydia Hörth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1)

  3. 4.  Albert Hörth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1)

  4. 5.  Elisabetha Hörth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 1 Feb 1887 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 10 Oct 1951 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA; was buried on 12 Oct 1951 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Elisabetha married Jacob Wüst Wiist on 26 Oct 1903. Jacob (son of Jakob Wüst and Margaretha Klundt) was born on 15 Nov 1883 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 5 May 1963 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA; was buried in Rosemont Cemetery, Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 10. Albert A. Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 7 Feb 1904 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 6 May 1986 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA; was buried in Crestview Memorial Park, Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    2. 11. Jacob Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 9 Jan 1906 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 5 Mar 1906 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA.
    3. 12. Theodore Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 16 Mar 1907 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 16 Apr 1907 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA.
    4. 13. Ida Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 27 Apr 1908 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 17 Aug 1984 in Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    5. 14. Rhinehold Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 20 Aug 1910 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 10 Oct 1993 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    6. 15. Eugene Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 23 Oct 1912 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 28 Nov 1980 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    7. 16. Alvin Edward Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 11 Apr 1915 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 29 Jan 1981 in Tarrant County, Texas, USA.
    8. 17. Esther Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 9 May 1917 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 15 Apr 1998 in Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    9. 18. Ruth Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    10. 19. William Vernon Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 29 Sep 1923 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 7 Oct 1998 in Keene, Johnson County, Texas, USA.

  5. 6.  Heinrich Hörth Hoerth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 25 May 1889 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina.

    Family/Spouse: Elizabeth Moser. Elizabeth (daughter of Peter Moser and Magdalena Fuhrmann) was born on 3 Aug 1881 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 27 Feb 1950 in Washington, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  6. 7.  Rosa Hörth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 24 Oct 1891 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 21 Feb 1972 in Lewisville, Polk County, Oregon, USA.

    Rosa married Ferdinand Göttmann Goettman on 26 Nov 1910 in Texas, USA. Ferdinand was born on 16 Jul 1887 in Österreich; died on 24 Nov 1978 in Lewisville, Polk County, Oregon, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 20. Frieda L. Goettman  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 21. Lydia M. Goettman  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 22. Esther A. Goettman  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 23. Martha A. Goettman  Descendancy chart to this point

  7. 8.  Frederick Hoerth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 8 May 1897 in Texas, USA; died in 0Sep 1974 in Alpena, Jerauld County, South Dakota, USA.

  8. 9.  Edward Hoerth Descendancy chart to this point (1.Michael1) was born on 28 Sep 1900 in Texas, USA; died on 13 Jul 1970 in Wessington Springs, Jerauld County, South Dakota, USA.

    Edward married Martha Heckenlaible on 1 Dec 1929 in South Dakota, USA. Martha (daughter of Edward Heckenlaible and Emma Edelman) was born on 3 Apr 1906 in South Dakota, USA; died on 13 Nov 1977 in Wessington Springs, Jerauld County, South Dakota, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]



Generation: 3

  1. 10.  Albert A. Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 7 Feb 1904 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 6 May 1986 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA; was buried in Crestview Memorial Park, Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Albert married Ida Moser on 23 Feb 1923 in Texas, USA. Ida (daughter of Jakob Moser and Rosa Veiock) was born on 12 Jan 1904 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 19 Jun 1974 in Texas, USA; was buried in Crestview Memorial Park, Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 24. Elmer Lee Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 23 Feb 1924 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 4 Oct 1980 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    2. 25. Rosemary Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 26. Herbert Albert Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 27. Darlene Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    5. 28. Clara Lou Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    6. 29. Dorothy Mae Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    7. 30. Milton Ray Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

    Family/Spouse: Geneva E. Stout. Geneva was born on 28 May 1914 in Wichita County, Texas, USA; died on 29 Dec 1997 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 11.  Jacob Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 9 Jan 1906 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 5 Mar 1906 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA.

  3. 12.  Theodore Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 16 Mar 1907 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 16 Apr 1907 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA.

  4. 13.  Ida Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 27 Apr 1908 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 17 Aug 1984 in Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Ida married Eduard Reichert on 11 Nov 1928 in Clay County, Texas, USA. Eduard (son of Johannes Reichert and Emma Marie Wüst) was born on 25 Dec 1903 in Rohrbach, Odessa, Ukrayina; died on 23 Feb 1993 in Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 31. Wilburn Edward Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 32. Melvin Ray Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 33. Shirley Ann Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point

    Family/Spouse: Smitty Smith. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  5. 14.  Rhinehold Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 20 Aug 1910 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 10 Oct 1993 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Rhinehold married Ruth Priscilla Reichert on 1 Jul 1933 in Waurika, Jefferson County, Oklahoma, USA. Ruth (daughter of Johannes Reichert and Emma Marie Wüst) was born on 15 Feb 1912 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 18 May 2003 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 34. Glenda Fae Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  6. 15.  Eugene Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 23 Oct 1912 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 28 Nov 1980 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Eugene married Mozelle Madge Qualls on 17 Oct 1936 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. Mozelle was born on 13 Aug 1917 in Knox City, Knox County, Texas, USA; died on 22 Jul 1992 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 35. Weldon Eugene Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 12 Jun 1937 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 28 Aug 1990 in Garden Grove, Orange County, California, USA.
    2. 36. Robert Lee Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 37. Mary Elizabeth Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  7. 16.  Alvin Edward Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 11 Apr 1915 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 29 Jan 1981 in Tarrant County, Texas, USA.

    Alvin married Juanita Julia Kirby on 29 Apr 1939 in Sherman, Grayson County, Texas, USA. Juanita was born on 11 Oct 1917 in Bells, Grayson County, Texas, USA; died on 18 Feb 1996 in Cleburne, Johnson County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 38. Gladys Ann Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 39. William Henry Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  8. 17.  Esther Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 9 May 1917 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 15 Apr 1998 in Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Esther married Albert Crongie Weiss on 28 Apr 1934 in Wichita County, Texas, USA. Albert (son of Johannes Franziskus Weiss and Bertha S. Schaefer) was born on 19 Feb 1900 in Texas, USA; died on 16 Mar 1998 in Lakewood, Jefferson County, Colorado, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 40. Lee Roy Weiss  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 41. Peggy Joyce Weiss  Descendancy chart to this point

  9. 18.  Ruth Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Ruth married Edward Bachman [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Ruth married David George Tammen [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 42. Jerry Dale Tammen  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 43. Carolyn Sue Tammen  Descendancy chart to this point

  10. 19.  William Vernon Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 29 Sep 1923 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 7 Oct 1998 in Keene, Johnson County, Texas, USA.

    William married Arlene Rae Thomas [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 44. Linda Gayle Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 45. William Michael Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 9 Jul 1954 in Mayagüez Municipality, Puerto Rico, USA; died on 20 Oct 2022; was buried in Keene Cemetery, Keene, Johnson County, Texas, USA.
    3. 46. Deborah Jeanette Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  11. 20.  Frieda L. Goettman Descendancy chart to this point (7.Rosa2, 1.Michael1)

  12. 21.  Lydia M. Goettman Descendancy chart to this point (7.Rosa2, 1.Michael1)

  13. 22.  Esther A. Goettman Descendancy chart to this point (7.Rosa2, 1.Michael1)

  14. 23.  Martha A. Goettman Descendancy chart to this point (7.Rosa2, 1.Michael1)


Generation: 4

  1. 24.  Elmer Lee Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 23 Feb 1924 in Henrietta, Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 4 Oct 1980 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.

    Elmer married Margaret Bernice Horton about 1945. Margaret was born on 2 Jan 1924 in Kansas, USA; died on 25 Apr 2008 in Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 47. Johnny Lee Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 48. Tommy Ray Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  2. 25.  Rosemary Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Rosemary married Gerald B. Garrett [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 49. Larry Wayne Garrett  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 50. Randall Gerald Garrett  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 51. Tamara Marlene Garrett  Descendancy chart to this point

  3. 26.  Herbert Albert Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Herbert married Mary Lee Morris [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 52. Sharron Ann Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 53. Pamela Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 54. Gary Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  4. 27.  Darlene Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Earl Sexton. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  5. 28.  Clara Lou Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Roy Stanley Banning. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 55. Janine Gay Banning  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 6 Aug 1959; died on 18 Jan 1961; was buried in Crestview Memorial Park, Wichita Falls, Wichita County, Texas, USA.
    2. 56. Banning  Descendancy chart to this point

  6. 29.  Dorothy Mae Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Dorothy married John Farrell Brock [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 57. John Farrell Brock  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 58. Billy Ezekiel Brock  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 59. Peggy Sue Brock  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 60. Barney Brock  Descendancy chart to this point

  7. 30.  Milton Ray Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (10.Albert3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Milton married Jayne Stipe [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 61. Debra Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 62. Vicki Lynne Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 63. Milton Ray Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  8. 31.  Wilburn Edward Reichert Descendancy chart to this point (13.Ida3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Wilburn married Dorothy Augusta Bachman [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 64. Mark Lynn Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 65. Keith Wayne Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 66. Cynthia Ann Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point

  9. 32.  Melvin Ray Reichert Descendancy chart to this point (13.Ida3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Melvin married Frances Dodd [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 67. Pamela Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 68. Paula Reichert  Descendancy chart to this point

    Melvin married Cynthia D. Mills [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  10. 33.  Shirley Ann Reichert Descendancy chart to this point (13.Ida3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Edwin James Bitz. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 69. Donald Ray Bitz  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 70. Laura Janette Bitz  Descendancy chart to this point

  11. 34.  Glenda Fae Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (14.Rhinehold3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Glenda married Dale Lee Carl [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  12. 35.  Weldon Eugene Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (15.Eugene3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 12 Jun 1937 in Clay County, Texas, USA; died on 28 Aug 1990 in Garden Grove, Orange County, California, USA.

    Family/Spouse: Glynes Jean Nelson. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 71. Kaye Lynn Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 72. Daniel Eugene Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

    Family/Spouse: Barbara Deniece Rogers. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 73. Cynthia Deniece Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  13. 36.  Robert Lee Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (15.Eugene3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Robert married Lynn Rene Evans [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Robert married Barbara Dale McCarty [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 74. Rhonda Faye Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 75. Roger Lee Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

    Robert married Linda A. Hicks [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  14. 37.  Mary Elizabeth Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (15.Eugene3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Mary married Patrick Pullin [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 76. Patricia Lynn Pullin Burney  Descendancy chart to this point

    Mary married Connie Lee Burney [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 76. Patricia Lynn Pullin Burney  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 77. Christopher Lee Burney  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 78. Brian Keith Burney  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 16 May 1972 in Wichita County, Texas, USA; died on 2 Jun 1989 in Wichita County, Texas, USA.

  15. 38.  Gladys Ann Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (16.Alvin3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Gladys married Jim Claiborne [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 79. Kara Diane Claiborne  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 80. Aimee Rose Claiborne  Descendancy chart to this point

  16. 39.  William Henry Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (16.Alvin3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    William married Cynthia Marguerite Gibbons [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  17. 40.  Lee Roy Weiss Descendancy chart to this point (17.Esther3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Helen Ruth Binkman. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  18. 41.  Peggy Joyce Weiss Descendancy chart to this point (17.Esther3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Peggy married Anthony Patton Waters [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Family/Spouse: Keith Ingram. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 81. Lindsey Ingram  Descendancy chart to this point

  19. 42.  Jerry Dale Tammen Descendancy chart to this point (18.Ruth3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Louella Ford. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 82. Kimberly Gayle Tammen  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 83. David Dale Tammen  Descendancy chart to this point

    Family/Spouse: Deborah Jean Smith. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Family/Spouse: Juanita Born. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 84. Michael Tammen  Descendancy chart to this point

  20. 43.  Carolyn Sue Tammen Descendancy chart to this point (18.Ruth3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Family/Spouse: Ray Osmond Summerlin. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 85. Rick Summerlin  Descendancy chart to this point

    Family/Spouse: Ben Askew. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  21. 44.  Linda Gayle Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (19.William3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Linda married Jack Deryl Knutson [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 86. Kristin Deanne Knutson  Descendancy chart to this point

  22. 45.  William Michael Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (19.William3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1) was born on 9 Jul 1954 in Mayagüez Municipality, Puerto Rico, USA; died on 20 Oct 2022; was buried in Keene Cemetery, Keene, Johnson County, Texas, USA.

    William married Veronique Christine Hermans [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 87. Catherine Elizabeth Christine Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 88. Alexandra Juliana Wiist  Descendancy chart to this point

  23. 46.  Deborah Jeanette Wiist Descendancy chart to this point (19.William3, 5.Elisabetha2, 1.Michael1)

    Deborah married Charles Arlan Monroe [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Deborah married Louis Joseph Speyer [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. 89. Louis William Speyer  Descendancy chart to this point